Is it possible for me to work on Star Trek in any way shape or form? The trouble Bob says, is a union issue. There is a west coast makeup union, and an east coast union. They aren’t interchangeable. Getting into the west coast union is a whole can of worms. Bob stops for a second, weighing out what he just said with experience. Well, he says, there is more than one way to skin a cat… our graphic designer is coming all the way from Hawaii. I remember thinking what a lucky dog this guy is. Little could I have imagined who this lucky guy was, and how lucky I would be to know him later. Ultimately it turned out there really was only one way to skin a cat, and my admittance to the west coast union would be later ushered by Warren Beatty, thereby opening the door for me to Star Trek.
(Below) Roddenberry and Justman confer with director Robert Butler, on the Mojave parkland set in the “Star Trek” pilot, “The Cage”. Knowing Bob, he is probably saying something droll, I mean look at Susan Oliver’s face.
1992 – Down on stage they were getting ready to shoot Scotty’s return to Star Trek on The Next Generation. A nice pie shaped piece of the original bridge had been conjured on stage 9, and Mike and I had spent sometime in the DS9 art department recreating the various blinky panels. Doug! Shouts Mike. Bob Justman is downstairs to see our bridge! Hurry! I stand straight up. Bob Justman! I hadn’t seen him since 1986. I wonder if he’ll remember me? I swallow hard, and dash down the art department steps after Mike. I’m nervous! After more than ten years in the business there are still things that make me nervous.
When we get down to stage, Ronald D Moore is standing there, checking out our handy work. It’s obvious this is a dream come true for him as well. Mike taps me on the shoulder… Bob, he whispers. I look up and see Robert H Justman enter the stage. Ok… this is what the Twilight Zone feels like. Mike enthusiastically shakes Bob’s hand as Denise gives him a hug, but Bob doesn’t recognize me at all. Sigh! We inspect the bridge set with him, and he tells us to change the carpet. Still the producer. Across the street we had just completed the DS9 sets, as we head for the stage door, Bob turns to me and says… Thought I forgot you, huh? My jaw goes slack. I’m very proud of you, says Bob, I saw you win your well deserved Academy Award. Oh man! Doug is on cloud nine, AND stage nine, and all at the same time.
(Below) Bob and I shake hands in front of his tribute shuttle arranged by Mike.
(Below) A quite pleased Bob soaks it up.

1992 – A crack opened in the stage door as our entrance to it created a blinding wedge of light into it’s inner sanctum. The DS9 promenade was one huge set, on a Bondian scale. Bob was impressed, but I could sense a certain sadness in him. Bob had never profited from the enormous success of Star trek, aside from his regular salary. he confessed that he had never watched any of the DS9’s… because it was too painful. I remember feeling somewhat uncomfortable at that moment, but Bob was his usual gracious self and was quite impressed by the set design. We had quite a rambunctious and spirited design team in that first season. Ricardo Delgado was a real firebrand, and our two set designers, Brits Joe Hodges and Nathan Crowley, were quite nutty as well. This is evidenced by all the sexual innuendo in the promenade designs. This was not lost on Bob Justman when he came for a visit. Bob covered Denise’s ears, and whispered to Mike and me, “The windows are vaginas!” .
“…Bob honored us with a visit to the Deep Space Nine stages, just before the show went on the air. Doug, Mike, and I were proud to show him around the new sets, and he was very complimentary about them. At one point he turned to us and said something like, “You all look pretty tired.” We had all been working very long hours (along with the rest of the production crew), so we agreed. Bob smiled at all of us. He looked each of us in the eye and said “Remember these times. In years to come, you’ll look back on these as some of the best days of your lives.” – Denise Okuda
(Below) Bob and the DS9 filming miniature.

1986 – The first production episode of TNG had not gone before the lens yet, and you could almost feel the electricity and the tension in the air. It was a big gamble. The studio was taking a chance. This new series was with the old school guys who created the original Star Trek, and not the current breed who had made the movie series a success. What makes anyone think they could do it again? In fact when they did it last time, it wasn’t such a hit. As Bob and I walked across the lot from a meeting I sat in on with ILM, he confirmed the fear. They had to compete with the motion pictures. I told him that I thought Trek was better served as a series, and that every movie must be a car chase. I preferred the template which allowed for a varied exploitation of ideas… that that format works best for science fiction. He smiled in his Bob way… Well, he said… we’ll know in September if it’s all down the tubes. I pat him on the shoulder reassuringly, and feeling slightly unstuck in time, not unlike Billy Pilgrim.
(Below) One of Bob’s famous gag memos. This one where he fires Gene Roddenberry in true Hollywood style.

1986 – Bob opens the door to the writers building, as we entered the coolness. I want you to meet someone he says, leading me upstairs, and thru a maze of doors. A friendly looking man is digging through some files in one of the offices. He turns as we enter. Eddie, this Doug Drexler… an east coast makeup artist, and one of our original generation of Star Trek fans. Dumbfounded, I drop down on one knee and genuflect before Eddie Milkis. Eddie the jovial personality he is, cracks up, pulling me to my feet. We shake hands and I am grinning from ear to ear. Eddie not only was a veteran of the original Star Trek, but had become a Hollywood powerhouse. He was the Milkis of Miller-Milkis Productions and had been involved with Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, and The Odd Couple. It’s a pleasure to meet you Doug! he smiled. Welcome to Star Trek! Thank you sir, the pleasure and honor is mine all mine. Yes it is, said Bob dryly, with a small satisfied smile. Gee, I love these guys, I’m thinking, I HAVE to work here.
“…Bob Justman originally hired me to work at Paramount for two weeks during preproduction for Star Trek: The Next Generation. For a kid from Hawaii, it was no small thrill. When I started, I told Bob that I thought the graphics for the Enterprise-D bridge would take longer, but he wouldn’t budge. After all, Bob was legendary for running Star Trek’s budget with an iron fist. Needless to say, I was delighted that he eventually relented and kept me on. Of course, from that point on, whenever I saw him on the set, he’d always demand – with a twinkle in his eye – to know when I’d be getting OFF his payroll and returning to Hawaii!” -Mike Okuda
(Below) Bob and Eddie in 1967, lampooned by TOS soundman Frank Oakden. They are commenting on Gregg Peters bald pate.
1998 – Eddie Milkis drops into the art department, and I had not seen him since that day in 1986 in the writer’s building. He stuck his head into our office, and we all lit up like hundred watt bulbs. Smiling at us warmly he says… I just wanted to say hello, give you my love, and tell you to remember that you will look back on this experience as some of the best days of your lives. Remember that. We shook his hand, and hugged him. That was the last time we saw Eddie. He must have known something, as he passed away shortly after that.
2008 – Seeing Bob that day full of wit and charm, was one of the best moments of my life. He was warm, wonderful, and fully brilliant. His movements were measured, and he was more frail than we had ever seen him, but he was our Bob, and we lavished him with attention. In the past he had seemed uncomfortable with our adulation of him, but this time around was different. I was not mistaken, he was basking in it and soaking it up, and we were thrilled to pile it on. Look at the pictures of us visiting him that day. I was beside myself. Can’t you see the love and admiration?



We had a wonderful evening. Jackie Justman was the perfect hostess, and had a magnificent spread of different wines and cheese set out for us. We reminisced with Bob, and told him the stories of how he affected our lives and the way we looked at the world. There was one moment that I will never forget, a magic moment that Bob and I shared that night. I told him how much I loved his show that followed “Star Trek”, a show called “Then Came Bronson”, and that I tuned it in at first simply because he was producing it. Now, I’ve heard of people following an actor from show to show… but a producer? I think that was the biggest Bob smiled that night. But the best was yet to come for me.
(Below) Bob and Herb Solow (L) on the set of “Then Came Bronson”.
While discussing “Bronson” I mentioned the parallels between “Star Trek” and “Bronson”. The main characters both explorers. One explores the universe on a spaceship, and thereby himself, The other explores the country on a motorcycle, and thereby himself. I pointed out that both shows begin with a monologue, or dialog which sets the stage – ”Space the final frontier…”
“…At that moment Bob looked me directly in the eye and said, Takin’ a trip? I smiled and squinted at him… What’s that? I said, and without missing a beat he repeated… takin’ a trip? I smiled, hardly able to contain myself.. Um… yeah… Bob looked at me with liquid eyes… Where to? He asked with conviction. I shook my head in disbelief… I dunno… wherever I end up I guess. Now Bob looked at me more intent than ever… Man, I wish I was you, he said… I was blown away… Really? Well, hang in there! …And then I lost it, laughing like a little kid… probably that same kid from 1966 who while reading the Making of Star Trek knew what he wanted to do, and loved a gentleman by the name of Bob Justman from afar.” – Doug Drexler
(Below) Letter from Bob granting Doug the thrill of a lifetime.
(Below) Denise explaining to a dumbfounded Mike Okuda (something you don’t see everyday) that this is his 40th birthday surprise party at Bob Burns house, Steven (Whitfield) Poe, and Bob look on in delight. 
(Below) Gary Hutzel, Denise, Bob, me, and Mike at Image G during effects shooting for “Trials and Tribble-ations”.
Wow.
You’ve made my evening, Douglas.
I’ll have more to say upon the morrow.
What an emotionally wrenching and fulfilling day… first seeing “Up” in the theater this afternoon, and now reading this. What a lovely tribute… God, I wish I had known him.
Lovely tribute, thank you, Doug, Denise, Andy, and Rick!
I should mention that the Shuttlecraft Justman was actually Rick Berman’s idea. I was always impressed and happy that Rick wanted to pay tribute to his colleague in such a very special way. I know that Bob loved it!
Man, I sure hope we can find more producers like Bob Justman. I think Leonard Nimoy hits it on the head: keeping the human capital engaged is the most important job, and Justman’s production philosophy was surely a big reason why the original series felt like a coherent universe right off the bat.
I can also sympathize with the stresses of aging. I’m helping my grandma through her twilight years right now (born 1926, like Mr. Justman), and I’m glad to hear that Mr. Justman was lucid up till the end. He surely had many great memories to share.
Oh man, Doug! That was perfect. You had me going right alongside you getting to know a hero and experiencing the joy of the journey.
What a great man who seems to have achieved the elusive balance between taking yourself, your work and other people seriously, but not *too* seriously. It’s obvious, based on all of the accounts here, that people were of utmost importance to him. He made time and took the effort to recognize the folks around him and support them. Life is too short; I’m going to learn from his example that you’ve shared here. Thank you, Doug!!
The media always seems to paint a picture of Hollywood as a place of compromised souls, myopic visionaries and heartless penny-pinchers. What a joy it is to know that, in reality, there were people like Mr. Justman; people who could walk the tightrope between artistic merit and commercial success, and do it with a smile on his face.
I’d never met him, but through reading many of his infamous memos in various Trek publications I feel that I may have known him just a little bit. Mr. Drexler, you are so fortunate to have had a mentor like Bob Justman, as well as friends like Michael and Denise Okuda.
This is a lovely tribute, sincere and very well-told. It’s obvious that Mr. Justman meant a great deal to you. Thank you for sharing this with us.
A wonderful and beautiful tribute, Doug! I’m sure if Bob is watching, from what you’ve share with us of the man that he was in life, he’d be proud.
I just feel like I want to cry all over again.
Take it easy Doug.
Frank
I’m not gonna be able to sleep tonight unless I say a few words on the esteemed Mr. Justman.
First, though, I want to thank Doug for taking the time to put this together. I have been pestering him for some weeks to write about Mr. Justman, and I have not been disappointed.
I was also that kid reading “The Making of Star Trek”, although it was probably a couple of decades after Mr. Drexler was, but it was an eye-opening read for me. The people who made the television show I had become obsessed with were just as interesting as the fictional people who were portrayed on it, and one of the most interesting was Bob Justman. His memos were brilliant, droll, insightful, and effective. Although he wasn’t a performer, this man was clearly an entertainer – he had the intellectual wherewithal to be very funny while getting his point across with a marksman’s accuracy. He was the spoonful of sugar and the medicine that helped it go down. Bob was the first person that I associated with the production side of Star Trek after Gene Roddenberry, and that was thus the beginning of my awareness and appreciation for all the talented people who made the show that I loved: John D.F. Black, Dorothy Fontana, Wah Chang, Fred Phillips, Gene Coon, Eddie Milkis, Matt Jefferies, Bill Theiss, and on and on.
But what made Bob special to me was finding out about his life when he wasn’t making Star Trek. I read his “Inside Star Trek”, with Herb Solow, as an adult, and I was so impressed with Bob Justman that I started seeking out information about him. I was interested in who this person was, and I quickly found out: a veteran, a faithful husband, a father, a mentor, a public servant, a loyal friend, an honest man to work for and with, a man who was content with his accomplishments, modest about them, and not seeking his own glory. Doug said something to the effect of finding out that your heroes are as good as you expect or better, and that was my delight in finding out that this Bob Justman guy seemed to be the real deal. Not an egotist inflating his own importance, not a creation of P.R., not a figure of self-aggrandizement concerned with instigating and perpetuating his own legend, but rather a man to be genuinely admired and, dare I say, someone to look to as something of a role model.
Naturally, I never had the good fortune to meet Mr. Justman. I would have loved to have shaken his hand and told him how much I admired him and thanked him for the fun and entertainment “Star Trek” has brought into my life over the years. I’m very pleased to know that Bob was able to get some positive feedback from people in later years for his wonderful work on Star Trek. It was long overdue and well deserved. He’s become something of a larger-than-life figure to me and its nice to read the reminiscences of people who actually knew him.
I didn’t know that Bob was seriously ill until he passed away, and I didn’t know he had been suffering from Parkinson’s Disease. When I found out, I had a whole new appreciation for the man, as my own father is about twelve years into a Parkinson’s diagnosis. He and I are in business together, we work together every day. Over time, I have watched the illness gradually take its toll on his body and I have watched his courage in dealing with it and in living his life with grace and good humor. I know how hard it is for a family to watch a beloved father struggle and carry on. And again I admire Bob. It may be ridiculous to have such affection for someone who didn’t know you from Adam, but that’s me. I am a Bob Justman fan.
Thanks for this, Doug. I genuinely appreciate it.
WOW. sniff…. That was really good Doug. There are not too many non-family members for which I cry. I cried in 91 when I heard about Gene, and I have to admit to a few tears after reading your emotional and heart felt tribute to Bob. Star Trek is amazing in that, not only are the stories compelling, but the feeling of family and closeness between the cast, crew and fans is unparalleled in all of the industry.
We mourn for those who we have perhaps never met because of their gift to us.
We have lost a lot of them now, and every one lost feels like a piece chipped from my childhood.
Thank you again for what you do… it means so much to so many of us. Sure the eye candy and cool pics are great, but it is the human stories, such as this one that, for me, is so compelling and attractive.
Peace and Light
Jeff
Great stuff, of course.
His and Herb Solow’s “Inside Star Trek” is a must-read, natch.
I knew something good would come when I saw the first photograph (Dorth’s work, no doubt
) That photograph absolutely captures “loving family”.
You’ve outdone yourself with this lovely tribute and photo essay. I remember reading “The Making of Star Trek” and “Inside Star Trek” one summer many years ago, this brought it all back. Working on Star Trek, with greats like Bob Justman, Matt Jefferies, Jerry Goldsmith and of course Gene must have been inspiring (certainly inspired you). I can imagine how you worked many day and night, without realizing that you had been working for hours because “It’s Star Trek, and we love it” or “Bob wanted the carpet to be grey instead of brown”. The love for the show and the people is what fuels you in these moments.
Thanks for the great tribute, Doug!
That was a lovely tribute.
A moving tribute to a man you obviously love like a father/brother.
Just want to let you and Mike Okuda, Rick Sternbach, John Eaves, Jim Martin, Herman Zimmerman, Ron D. Moore et al, know that’s how we feel about YOU.
Hopefully I’ll have the honour of meeting you guys and paying my respects and gratitude for all the great entertainment and fun over the years.
RIP Bob Justman.
I couldn’t have said it any better, thanks for reading my mind, Barrie!
Wow, Doug. Very well done. Thank you so much.
That was beautiful, Mr Drexler. Star Trek is a unique platform, where you really feel there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes. Behind every second of screen time, there’s a hero making things come together in military precision.
Fantastic tribute Doug, you hit the nail on the head, including the you tube tribute was great too. Its an odd thing with Trek, but it’s actually always been the guys behnd the scenes that I’ve followed more than the actors, maybe its because I’ve worked backstage in theatre and realise how many people in a production get forgotten about or not acknowledged for the amazing work they put into it.
I’ll also echoe what Barrie said, that theres alot of us out there that feel the same way about Doug, Rick, Mike, Denise, John and the gang as you guys did about Bob, I know it sounds a tad cheesy….
It’s the next morning for me, and my second time around reading this amazing tribute.
I just got done taking my children to school, and as I sit here and read not just Doug’s feelings, impressions and thoughts on the man who was Bob Justman, I am forced to wonder if there is anyone MY children will admire so much as we have admired these men. Mr. Drexler included.
I think that each of us in our own ways loved and admired Mr. Justman. Some from afar, others up close. You can’t put into words a lifetime of excellence, but you can try.
Barrie Suddery was right Doug. We feel the same way about you.
Take care.
A wonderful piece Doug. That first letter Bob had typed up for the series end was a bit harsh,imo. To use the word “terminate” in those types of letters is a bit taboo these days, but then again, there was no such thing as politically correct. That had to be a major blow to anyone working on the show. It’s a shame that Gene’s dream fell short to public opinion, but I guess that’s the way it goes when it comes to Sci-fi. Nowadays people want more reality shows and from waht I’ve read, they want them because their own lives are too boring…kinda ironic considering that back in the day, more people watched Sci-fi because of the same reasons. Granted there are many though who watch Sci-fi to hold on to the dreams of tomorrow, which I am more of a firm believer in. We still need people like Michael Okuda, Doug Drexler, John Eaves, Anrew Probert and Rich Sternbach (forgive me if I left anyone else out), to carry the torch of dreams, to help inspire us younger (and even keep alive the dreams of the elders) to continue on the path that Gene set many years ago. When the series’ had shorted out, it was if someone had pulled the plug on dreams and made us come back to the harsh reality of the present. Let us all stand tall and rebel and tell the world that there needs to be dreamers in the world to help us forge a better future for our children and their children’s children.
Thanks again for the post Doug.
creativedistractions,
That termination letter is introduced as “one of Bob’s famous gag memos”.
Thanks for this tribute, Doug. I did not have the good fortune of meeting Bob when I was working on Trek.
Thanks for taking the time to write this. It’s a touching and heartfelt – not to mention fascinating – tribute to one of the all-time greats.
That was a great read and touching story and poignant at the same time. I love the termination letter and door slammin incident. I love this place. I’m gonna wax mushy here for a minute so, bear with me. Doug, from reading all your posts and comments, I’ve come to one conclusion…..your’e good people! Seriously. You’ve got a great heart! I’ve noticed the majority, if not all, of your posts have an overall good vibe! You talk highly of your friends and your replies to all the posts are even handed and fair. That speaks of good character.
This place is great! Plus, you’re a pretty good-looking chap. At least my wife thinks so!
Good karma is contagious so, I’m just going to keep coming here for my daily dose.
You need to write a book about your experiences on Trek and other films. I’ll be the first in line to buy a copy!
This is the thing that made Trek what it was, glad to know that there were so many smiles behind the scenes.
Thank you for this touching peek behind the scenes and the tribute Doug.
Jorg: Yes, I was the fly on the wall. It was a beautiful thing to see.
BB43Man: Your wife is right! Doug is and always has been (for the last 18 years)the handsome chap who stole my heart!
We all miss our Bob, but he lives on in our memories. What a guy!
All I can say is: Thank you, Doug Drexler.
Then Came Justman.
And thanks for ridin’ into my life, Bob Justman.
Hang in there, and Live Long and Prosper,
deg
Wow, so I’m late to the party… Fantastic tribute Doug
Bob always seemed like a great guy and like you Doug and many of others here I was first exposed to Bob’s wit and love of memos in The Making of Star Trek where some were reprinted.
And I agree with what BB43MAN said, you guys seem like great folks and Doug you need to write a book about all this someday!
Oh and nice to see a comment from Dorth above me, from what Doug has put up here it sure seems like he’s crazy about you too
Very touching. How amazing you got to meet and work with the man.
Thanks Doug.
It was truely the best of times…
Thanks again,
The DC
Aesome tribute to a legendary man. What a privilege to know him!
And just think, years from now people involved in creating new Trek and other flights of fancy could be writing the same things about you and what you meant to them. That’s something to think about, isn’t it?
An amazing tribute Doug…people come into our lives for a reason, and make a profound affect. They shall never be forgotten.
I can hardly add anything to what’s been said. Beautiful tribute, and as has been touched on many times above, so wonderful that there is such a strong family behind the scenes – you are all an inspiration.
What a very warm and heartfelt tribute to Bob Justman. It really shows how much Trek is more like a family than just another business.
Also, nice little mini-tribute to Eddie Milkis as well.
I too would like to say what a incredible way to remember an incredible person, I read somewhere that Motion Pictures are a Director’s medium and Television is a Producers medium, and I think Bob Justman proves that. I envy you Doug, I would loved to have just sat and listened to stories.
I also agree with BB43MAN, Doug should write a book of his experiences in keeping Star Trek alive for all of us.
I also a agree with many here I am a Doug Drexler fan…
Wonderful tribute to a wonderful person
Thanks very much for sharing that, Doug.
It’s taken a couple of hours for your tribute to really sink in, and I’ve found myself reflecting on something my radio tutor once said during my journalistic training years ago. He told us to “be in awe of no one”. Though I could see the professional merit of what he was saying at the time, it just didn’t seem to ring true. My skepticism has stayed over the intervening years, but it’s only as the weight of your words for Bob have had time to sink in that I truly realise what a fallacy it was.
Everyone should have their heroes, and when your heroes live up to the awe they’ve inspired it is a true thing of beauty and wonder.
Thank you everyone! Thank you for loving Bob… I know that he loved you!
Doug,
your tribute to Bob Justman was the best way for me to wrap up this day which I spent watching the last what…8 episodes of the first season of TOS on DVD and the documentary about the Christies auction (nice to see and hear Mike and Denise and of course Mr. Justman)
Just like Jörg, I second what Barrie Suddery wrote about our feelings and thoughts towards you guys.
Very moving tribute.
And two more books on the “to read” list “Inside Star Trek” + “The Making of Star Trek”
Thorsten
A very interesting and informative article, and very much from the heart.
I’m glad to have read it and to know more about someone who played such a crucial part in a series I love.
Doug that was beautiful, just beautiful. I never knew Bob Justman obviously, but now, in a sense, I feel like I’ve met him and can better appreciate Star Trek and his influence on it, all the more. It really does become richer the more you learn about it. Thanks for sharing this Doug.
@Barrie Suddery: Seconded, so very, very much.
What an amazing post. Thank you (x 1000).
I had a copy of “The Making of Star Trek” when I was younger, also. Read it to pieces, of course.
Mr. Justman’s memos were some of the funniest things I’ve ever read.
My favourite had to be the back-and-forth memos about proper names for Vulcans. IIRC, he decided that Vulcans would have 5-letter names starting with “sp” and ending in “k”.
Somehow they ended up with the idea of the all-Vulcan law firm of “Spuck, Spork, Spack, Spick, Spilk… and Roddenberry”.
God, I would have loved to meet these guys.
Doug, what a sincere and touching tribute. You have given Bob Justman another reason to be proud of you.
I’m with BB43MAN, Doug, you and your friends are “good people”.
Thanks for sharing this tribute.
Sincerly, Mark
Thanks, Doug. I challenge anyone to read this with a dry eye.
Mr. Justman is one of the forces behind Star Trek that I’ve only just recently come to appreciate. Thanks for helping me do that better. I’m sure he would be proud.
What a brilliant man. I love reading his gag memos in ‘The Making of Star Trek’.
Doug, thanks for all of that. Even though you’ve got me crying at the office, it was beautiful to read. And thank you, too, Bob Justman.
Outstanding.
Excellent job Doug. I am your age and also was lucky enough to follow a dream and work with some of my childhood heroes as an adult. As often is the case with human beans in an ego industry, some of them had feet of clay. But many were the real thing and decent people who encouraged and helped. I have no doubt that Bob’s influence and your own good heart will see you pay it forward as Bob did. I can think of no better tribute to quality people of Bob’s generation and spirit.
Admiral Relxerd ..
great work on this Blog. Thanks for the great memories of a great man.
How wonderful to see these rare glimpses of Bob Justman and his wife, colleagues, friends and admirers. I met Bob through a mutual acquaintance in 2007, in connection with a writing project Bob had revived and turned back to in his retirement. He was not well — he was, I was told, a muted version of his former self. In spite of that, he retained a presence and charm that only wholly realized men possess. I will be forever grateful to have had my few encounters with this gracious, dapper man of thought and action, and his lovely and elegant wife Jackie.